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Author Topic: Did my second CVT removal on a 650 today.  (Read 13772 times)
Buffalo
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« on: April 11, 2014, 01:02:04 AM »

A friend had the  the CVT on his 650 break so I volunteered to help him pull it and inspect it to see what was wrong.  We used a shortcut method someone came up with that does not require taking the whole bike apart like I did when I replaced the belt in mine.   This was much quicker.  After 4 1/2 hours of work we had the CVT out and laying on the work bench in pieces.  That compares to the 12 hours or so of work that it took me to pull the CVT on mine. 

Basically what we did was to take the front body work off then unhook just enough stuff to allow us to take out the motor mounts and lift the frame high enough up to allow clearance to pull the CVT off the side of the engine.     

Turned out his problem was the same as mine, the belt broke.  He's ordering parts and when they come in we will put it back together.  We don't expect it to take any longer to put it back together than it did to take it apart. 
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Craig
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2014, 01:29:03 AM »

Great job!  How many miles did he have when his broke?
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Buffalo
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2014, 03:41:39 AM »

It's got 97,000 on it. 
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2014, 04:34:22 AM »

Sounds like a premature failure to me.. 
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Buffalo
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2014, 05:36:08 AM »

Define premature 

And a correction, the bike has 94,000 miles on it not 97,000. 

The belt however only has around 44,000 on it.  This is Robins old bike and she had the CVT rebuilt at around 50,000 miles because of a bearing failure.  They put a new belt in it at that time even though the original belt was still serviceable.  We're not sure why the new one broke at 44,000.  Nothing appears to be amiss in the transmission that would have caused it.  The one in my 07 went twice that mileage before it broke.       
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2014, 06:03:31 AM »

Do you really have to remove the CVT from the bike to replace the belt?  Even using the short-cut method it will be a nine hour job, that seems excessive!    Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing the Burgman, but I think the Honda's access to their serviceable bits is more user friendly.  In 9.5 hrs I can replace my drive belt (1.25hrs) then ride north to and across Vermont enter and exit NY and ride back to Central MA, including lunch and a quick tour of Hemmings Motor News!

Its great to have a forum where knowledge is shared and experience is paid forward!  I am certain your friend is glad he has a friend who knows his stuff!
 
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2014, 12:23:56 PM »

Surely its just a question of removing the transmission cover?
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2014, 04:27:00 PM »

No it's not like the CVT in most scooters.  It's not hanging on the rear swing arm where you have easy access.  The CVT is bolted to the engine up inside the frame.  It does not have a variator with rollers.  It is shifted with a computer controlled electric motor that drives a gear in the primary pulley that changes the pulley width.  The belt is made from metal links strung on fiber loops.  Since the metal link belt does not require regular replacement like the belts in conventional scooter it was not set up for easy access.  Normally you would not expect to have to replace a belt until the bike had somewhere between 80,000 and a 100,000 miles on it.  When the belt falls it is because the fiber loops that the links are strung on fatigues and separates.   

Because the way this CVT works is so different from the way a conventional scooter CVT works you can't just pull a cover off it and slap a new belt in it.  Changing the belt is more like working on a car's automatic transmission than it is like replacing the belt in a conventional scooter CVT.  You have to split the CVT case halves to gain access to the belt. 

Getting the CVT off the bike is a fairly simple process.  You remove six bolts and an adapter gear that connects it to the engine then pull it straight of the side of the engine.  The hang up is that it is inside the frame and there is not enough room to slide it off without hitting the frame rails.   Once you have it off the bike and sitting on the work bench it is as easy to work on as a conventional CVT and maybe a littler easier because you don't have a variator to mess with.   

If you remove it by the book method you pull the whole engine module out of the bike, unbolt the CVT and pull it off.  That is what I did when I changed mine and it is a pretty big job.  This method does not pull the engine from the frame.  You just loosen the motor mounts and lift the frame up enough to clear the CVT  so you can slid it off.  You don't have to remove everything on the bike, just those that don't have enough slack in them to allow the frame to lift up about 6 inches.  You also only have to remove about 1/2 the body work instead of all of it.  It's a much quicker way to do it. 

Suzuki could have made the whole process simpler by making the section of the frame that blocks the CVT removable.  That way you could have removed the frame section, unbolted the CVT and pulled it off.  The only connections you would have to undo would be the wires that connect the CVT to the ECM.  Total time would only be 3 or 4 hours, much of that removing and replacing the bodywork that hides the engine.  Why they did not do that I don't know.  Possibly they just took it into consideration that most folks never put more than 30,000 to 40,000 miles on a bike so they would never have to change a belt.  That made access to the CVT a moot point.  Little did they know there would be folks that would use these as touring bikes and rack up 80,000 to a 100,000 miles in just a few years.

The CVT in my Burgman 400 is like those in most scooters.  It has a belt that needs replacing in 15,000 to 18,000 miles and it is located on the rear swing arm where you can just remove the cover and gain access to the insides.  I can pull it apart and replace the belt and/or rollers in an hour or two.  However I have to spend that hour or two every 15,000 to 18,000 miles.  In 107,000 miles of riding I've only had to pull the CVT in my 650 one time.  It's a trade off.  You spend a little time more often or a bigger chunk of time at much longer intervals.  In the long run the total time you spend on the CVT works out to be pretty much the same.   
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2014, 05:03:02 PM »

Thanks for the explanation, now it makes sense!
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Stanthescooterman
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2014, 05:07:07 PM »

Wow - what a job! Hats off to you !!!
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DaveO
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2014, 08:22:59 PM »

No it's not like the CVT in most scooters.  It's not hanging on the rear swing arm where you have easy access.  The CVT is bolted to the engine up inside the frame.  It does not have a variator with rollers.  It is shifted with a computer controlled electric motor that drives a gear in the primary pulley that changes the pulley width.


That brings us back to another thread about is it a motorcycle or a scooter, ( http://maxi-scoots.com/scoot/index.php?topic=6083.0 ) when I had my 650 and people asked what it was I'd try to explain just what Buffalo said about the non swing arm mounted motor hence making it a motorcycle warped in a scooter body. 
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Buffalo
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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2014, 12:25:18 AM »

True enough.  When you compare it to many motorcycles removing the CVT is simpler than working on their transmission.  On many motorcycles the transmission is located inside the engine.  To work on it you have to pull the engine out and take it completely apart.  Taken in that light, unbolting the CVT from the side of the engine is not such a big deal.   
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2016, 04:13:51 AM »

The 650 cvt has a much longer service life than the 400 ,but 95% of 650 owners wouldn't ever attempt to replace a belt. .....while 400 owners will.
But you know this.
That 650 is a great bike but the cvt issue helps sell SilverWings!
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Buffalo
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2016, 07:26:20 PM »

95% of Burgman 650 owners would probably never put enough miles on one to need to replace a belt so it's more a fear than a reality. 

Over on the Burgman USA board we are getting quite a group of folks that have pulled the CVT out of their 650 and taken it apart.  As more people do it and post that it is not that big a deal the fear of working on one is subsiding. 

Having worked on both a conventional CVT and the ECVT in the 650 I would say that if you can do one you can do the other.  It might take a little more time to pull the ECVT but it doesn't take any more skill or ability than most shade tree mechanics possess.   
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« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2016, 02:57:26 AM »

The 650 cvt has a much longer service life than the 400 ,but 95% of 650 owners wouldn't ever attempt to replace a belt. .....while 400 owners will.
But you know this.
That 650 is a great bike but the cvt issue helps sell SilverWings!
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As the Silverwing last year was 2013 and is no longer available unless you find a new left over 2013 in a dealers inventory and would have to get it really cheap then, I just do not believe it presently or ever impacted the 650 sales. You have 2 very different machines and the Silverwing although a good machine is not in the same class as the 650 Burgman, be it ride, handling, comfort, power or touring wise.

I guess that is why so many former Goldwing owners go with and purchase a Burgman 650 and not the Silverwing.
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2016, 05:02:35 AM »

But you know this.
That 650 is a great bike but the cvt issue helps sell SilverWings!
4711

Maybe in the minds of some. I remember when the Silverwing first came out in 2002 & this former Helix/Reflex owner was really looking forward to owning one. And as a Lifetime Honda rider how letdown I was with its vibration/buzziness.

Sure as with every new model problems will arise. With the gadgets. better rider protection, gear drive, The 650 Suzuki Burgman is every bit the bike the Honda Silverwing should of been!
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« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2018, 11:18:06 PM »

I have an 2005 650 burgman, i was riding and it stop moving.  I turned the throttle and my back wheel doesn't turn. The bike starts but no movement,  so do you guys have any idea what it could be?
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Buffalo
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« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2018, 12:47:12 AM »

The most likely thing is the belt broke.  That is what usually causes a sudden lost of power to the rear wheel. 

If you are willing and able to to a little dismantling to check things out you can confirm it. 

Pull the cover over the adapter bolt off and look to see if it is turning when the engine is running.  That is a small round cover on the side of the engine on the left side above the centerstand.  It is held on with two bolts.  You will need to remove the plastic piece below the floorboard on that side to get to it. If it is not turning then you are not getting power to the CVT.

If that bolt is turning then go to the other side and pull the CVT filter.  Again you will need to remove the plastic under the floorboard to access it.  Look through the opening behind the filter and see if the cooling fan is turning.  If it is not then the belt is likely broken. 

Fixing it wil require pulling the CVT out of the bike and splitting it's case to get to the insides.  Not a tough job if you have experence working on bikes but it is a bit time consuming and you will need some tools that you may not have in your tool box.  Because it is a time consuming job paying someone to do it will probably result in the cost being more than the bike is worth on an 05 model.  If you can do it youself then the bike is salvageable.   
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« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2018, 02:42:25 AM »

i removed the cover with the two 10 mm bolts and i turned the long bolt with a pair of pliers and the back wheel moved, i am so confused. it didn't move with the throttle. 
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Buffalo
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« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2018, 04:18:23 AM »

If you start the engine does that long bolt and the adapter it holds in place turn as the engine runs.  It should. 

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« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2018, 04:25:07 AM »

 Getting the CVT off the bike is a fairly simple process.  You remove six bolts and an adapter gear that connects it to the engine then pull it straight of the side of the engine.  The hang up is that it is inside the frame and there is not enough room to slide it off without hitting the frame rails.   Once you have it off the bike and sitting on the work bench. i'm pretty good with my hands, where can i get some photos of what you told me to look for.
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Buffalo
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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2018, 04:26:08 AM »

That long bolt goes through the center of a ring gear that is geared to the crankshaft.  The center of that ring gear is splined to the input shaft of the CVT.  The bolt screws into the end of the CVT input shaft and holds the adapter in place.  The adapter also meshes with the inside of the ring gear. 

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Buffalo
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« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2018, 04:45:29 AM »

Getting the CVT off the bike is a fairly simple process.  You remove six bolts and an adapter gear that connects it to the engine then pull it straight of the side of the engine.  The hang up is that it is inside the frame and there is not enough room to slide it off without hitting the frame rails.   Once you have it off the bike and sitting on the work bench. i'm pretty good with my hands, where can i get some photos of what you told me to look for.

Yes that is why you have to remove the engine mount bolts and raise the frame up enough to get clearance to slide the CVT off.  Before you do that you have to disconnect all the wiring from the frame to the engine and a few other things to allow the engine to move away from the frame.

If you are interested in pulling the CVT there is a thread I posted on the BurgmanUSA site that might be of help to read through.  It shows what I went through to pull the CVT from  my bike the first time.  It should give you pictures of most of the things you need to know as well as the tools I rigged up to take the place of the Suzuki special tools you need.  I did this by the long method layed out in the Suzuki service manual.  It involves taking the whole bike apart.  Since then we have figured out you don't need to do that.  Just raise the engine up enough to allow the CVT to come off instead of pulling it from the bike. 

https://burgmanusa.com/forums/15-burgman-650/47782-cvt-belt-replace.html
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Buffalo
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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2018, 04:56:34 AM »

Just remimbered I also posted a thread on here when I pulled my CVT.  http://maxi-scoots.com/scoot/index.php?topic=2668.0
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« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2018, 05:11:03 PM »

I read your post, but your attachments wouldn't show.
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« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2018, 06:07:17 PM »

I read your post, but your attachments wouldn't show.

Use the 2nd link to this forum. If you aren't a member or not logged in, you can't see the attachments on the Burgman site.
Since you are a Burgman owner, I'd still recommend you join their site for the extra info.
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Buffalo
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« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2018, 08:23:48 PM »

I posted the same pictures on the Maxi-scoots thread so can see them there.  On the BurgmanUSA thread they are included as attachments so they show up as thumbnails at the bottom of the post and not as pictures imbedded in the post. You have to click on the thumbnails to view them.
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« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2018, 03:07:20 AM »

the bolt is moving when the motor is on. the scooter is making a funny sound, like a diesel. i'm going to try getting to that cvt belt this weekend.
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Buffalo
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« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2018, 04:49:15 AM »

Before you get to deep into pulling the CVT take the bolt and the adapter out.  Use a light to look up inside the opening and see if you can detect any damage to the CVT input shaft. 

Also if you have not yet done so look to see if the cooling fan located behind the CVT filter spins when the engine is running. 
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« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2018, 11:16:34 PM »

do you need a special tool, because there is a smaller bolt, then a larger one. i didn't check the fan yet. i'll check it tomorrow
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