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Author Topic: Burgman 650 owners, do you ever switch between manual and automatic?  (Read 9095 times)
carewser
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« on: October 12, 2013, 08:02:54 PM »

I do all the time, on the highway I prefer manual so I can kick it into overdrive and then when I get into town I put it back in automatic. My hunch is most other burgman riders don't do this though, they just leave it in "Drive". 
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2013, 08:29:06 PM »

I used to.
What I've found out with my 05 is that when shifting from drive to manual to overdrive is your not gaining anything. Say @ 60 mph you shift into manual which should be 5th gear your rpm's come up & when you hit overdrive they bring them back down to pretty close to what they were in drive anyway. What your losing is your accelerating performance which you may need to get out of a situation.

Haven't played with the buttons on my 06 much yet.

What difference I've found between my 05 & 06 is the 06 is easier to move it backwards with the engine running for some reason.  
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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2013, 09:29:57 PM »

I don't.

Pete switches.

A guy in our club always has it in manual.
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carewser
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2013, 09:39:15 PM »

What difference I've found between my 05 & 06 is the 06 is easier to move it backwards with the engine running for some reason.  

I wonder if Suzuki did something to them between '05 and '06 then because I had an '03 that was really difficult to push backwards for some reason but my '08 Exec is a breeze. Whenever I had to back up with my old one it was a nightmare, especially on gravel.
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BradinBurnsHarbor
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2013, 10:46:49 PM »

I never did.

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Buffalo
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2013, 12:35:18 AM »

I very rarely shift mine into manual.  I've run a number of controlled test and find no significant difference in mileage so can't see any real reason to fool with it. 
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Craig
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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2013, 02:27:49 AM »

I use manual very infrequently.  I only use it to put it in overdrive on the interstate.  However, I have found it does not make much if any difference other than slowing down my passing.  I do use the power button in the mountains but more for engine braking than power. 
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Maggie
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2013, 02:57:53 AM »

I do use the power button in the mountains but more for engine braking than power. 

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SilverBullet
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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2013, 03:46:06 AM »

I do use the power button in the mountains but more for engine braking than power. 

+1

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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 08:11:41 AM »

I use manual mode out on the highway usually only between 55 and 65. Slower speeds and faster speed than that I find not much benefit.
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EZMark
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2013, 08:12:32 AM »

When I had my Burgman, I found that if I changed to manual shifting 6th gear on the highway, the engine would drop 500rpm's.
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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2013, 02:47:37 PM »

ike most others...yes.. on the interstate. and yes.. it drops 500 RPM's and loses torque when I put it in 6th gear manually.. then I put it in auto as I reach my exit.. and yes I use the power button for engine braking in twisty's and I use my power button when I pass a car on a 2 lane road.. zip zip!.. scooter
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carewser
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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2013, 06:11:04 PM »

When I had my Burgman, I found that if I changed to manual shifting 6th gear on the highway, the engine would drop 500rpm's.

Yeah that's because in automatic mode it only goes into 5th gear, there is no 6th gear in drive/automatic mode. Manual mode is the only way to get it into 6th gear and that's why I like/use it.





P.S.-This post got me my Ph.D in Scooterology.  
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SilverBullet
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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2013, 11:24:13 PM »

ike most others...yes.. on the interstate. and yes.. it drops 500 RPM's and loses torque when I put it in 6th gear manually.. then I put it in auto as I reach my exit.. and yes I use the power button for engine braking in twisty's and I use my power button when I pass a car on a 2 lane road.. zip zip!.. scooter
When I had my Burgman, I found that if I changed to manual shifting 6th gear on the highway, the engine would drop 500rpm's.

Lets not forget when you shift from drive to manual you go to 5th gear & your RPM's raise 500 rpm's from the drive mode only to drop back down to where you were originally (the 500 rpms) when shifting up to 6th (OD) Like was said, you only lose torque. Your not gaining anything.
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Buffalo
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 12:31:33 AM »


[/quote]
Yeah that's because in automatic mode it only goes into 5th gear, there is no 6th gear in drive/automatic mode. Manual mode is the only way to get it into 6th gear and that's why I like/use it.

Sorry but that is not true.  The CVT can go all the way to it's highest overdrive ratio in auto mode.  It will only do it if the conditions are just tight but it will do it.  In fact on the 03 and 04 models that was the only way you could get to OD ratios.  In manual mode they would not go above 5.   

I've had mine go directly to OD when I shifted from auto to manual.  Since the ECM will only do that if the CVT was already at it's highest ratio then it must have already been there before I shifted.  The ECM is programmed to go to the next lowest fixed ratio if you are between two of them when you shift from auto to manual.  The fixed ratio of 5 is a 1 to 1 ratio.  If you shift from auto to manual and the CVT goes to 5 and the rpms go up then you were in an overdrive ratio in auto mode, just not at the highest OD ratio.  If you had been it would have gone directly to OD. 

That's the beauty of the auto mode.  It gives you an infinite number of ratios between lowest and highest and the ECM will pick the one that puts to lowest load on the engine.  In manual mode you are limited to just 6.     
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SilverBullet
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2013, 02:00:42 AM »

The fixed ratio of 5 is a 1 to 1 ratio.  If you shift from auto to manual and the CVT goes to 5 and the rpms go up then you were in an overdrive ratio in auto mode, just not at the highest OD ratio.  If you had been it would have gone directly to OD.    

Makes sense. Just how fast do you need to be going to for it to go from drive (In auto mode) to OD when you shift? Ans still I bet theirs no noticable differene in RPM's

Now I'm going to have to go up on the freeway to check this out!
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EZMark
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2013, 02:24:26 AM »

Less RPM = less vibration, less wear on the engine and, theoretically, better MPG.
Yes, you do lose some passing power. But you always do with an overdrive.
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carewser
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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2013, 05:49:45 AM »

It will only do it if the conditions are just tight but it will do it.

I guess the conditions are just never right then because I rode my burgman close to 400 miles today and was going over 100 mph numerous times and every time I switched from manual (overdrive) to automatic, the revs went much higher, indicating it went in to 5th gear rather than overdrive.

In fact on the 03 and 04 models that was the only way you could get to OD ratios. In manual mode they would not go above 5.
 
That'd be because the '03 and i'm pretty sure '04 models never had overdrive, they were just 5 speeds.

That's the beauty of the auto mode.  It gives you an infinite number of ratios between lowest and highest and the ECM will pick the one that puts to lowest load on the engine.  In manual mode you are limited to just 6.  
I don't know what the hell you're talking about here.   The computer doesn't have an infinite number of gears to choose from, it has the same 5 you have in manual mode, it just decides which one to use at any given time. As for some "ratio" you're talking about 
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Three not 8
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« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2013, 07:47:46 AM »

You are quoting out of context and screwing with the wrong guy, I theenk.
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Leo38
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« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2013, 04:04:31 PM »


Yeah that's because in automatic mode it only goes into 5th gear, there is no 6th gear in drive/automatic mode. Manual mode is the only way to get it into 6th gear and that's why I like/use it.

Sorry but that is not true.  The CVT can go all the way to it's highest overdrive ratio in auto mode.  It will only do it if the conditions are just tight but it will do it.  

I've had mine go directly to OD when I shifted from auto to manual.  Since the ECM will only do that if the CVT was already at it's highest ratio then it must have already been there before I shifted.  The ECM is programmed to go to the next lowest fixed ratio if you are between two of them when you shift from auto to manual.  The fixed ratio of 5 is a 1 to 1 ratio.  If you shift from auto to manual and the CVT goes to 5 and the rpms go up then you were in an overdrive ratio in auto mode, just not at the highest OD ratio.  If you had been it would have gone directly to OD.  
  
[/quote]


Have to agree with Buffalo.
My '09 Exec will engage 6th. gear OD in auto mode when conditions are right.
Speed, throttle position & load are the deciding factors.
When in auto OD, the slightest throttle input, change in road elevation, strong head wind gust, etc.,and the transmission will revert to 5th. gear.
I have deliberately created a OD condition in auto and flipped back and forth between auto & manual OD with no change in RPM's. As previously stated, the conditions must be just right.
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Buffalo
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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2013, 06:37:44 PM »


Makes sense. Just how fast do you need to be going to for it to go from drive (In auto mode) to OD when you shift? Ans still I bet theirs no noticable differene in RPM's


It's not a matter of how fast you are going as long as you are going fast enough that the computer thinks it will not be lugging the engine at the highest ratio.  It is most likely to occur somewhere in the 60 to 70 mph range when there is a low load on the engine.  The first time it happened to me was when I topped a hill and backed off the throttle to keep from speeding up.  I switched from auto to manual just about the same time and it went directly to OD.  Surprised the heck out of me because it had never happen before. 

Like I said, the conditions have to be just right and the CVT has to be at it's highest ratio for it to happened.  If the CVT even just a little bit below that point it will go to 5th.  I've tried to make it happen by recreating the situation and have only been successful about 1% of the time.     
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Buffalo
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« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2013, 07:17:01 PM »

Where to start, guess I will take it step by step. 

I guess the conditions are just never right then because I rode my burgman close to 400 miles today and was going over 100 mph numerous times and every time I switched from manual (overdrive) to automatic, the revs went much higher, indicating it went in to 5th gear rather than overdrive. 


See my post responding to Silverbullet. 

To add to that, at higher speeds the CVT will never go into OD mode.  The reason is that the top speed of the 650 is limited by the horsepower of the engine.  It does not have enough horsepower to pull to the rev limit in it's highest ratio.  The computer is smart enough to know that and will lower the ratio of the CVT to make the most use of the limited horsepower. 

That'd be because the '03 and i'm pretty sure '04 models never had overdrive, they were just 5 speeds.

There is absolutely no difference in the primary pulley, secondary pulley and belt in the 03-04 and later 650s.  The size of the pulleys and belt determine the total range of ratios that are available.  The relative size of the pulleys is changed by varying their width.   The 03-04 could set the width of the pulleys to make complete use of the available range in auto mode.  In manual mode the highest fixed width that was available (5) did not set the width of the pulleys to their maximum range.  When Suzuki made the change to manual modes in 05 it did not make any changes to the CVT.  It changed the computer software to allow the maximum setting to be selected and added an indicator to the dash to let you know it had done so.
 
I don't know what the hell you're talking about here.   The computer doesn't have an infinite number of gears to choose from, it has the same 5 you have in manual mode, it just decides which one to use at any given time. As for some "ratio" you're talking about

That statement shows you have no idea how the CVT in the 650 works.  There are no gears in the CVT.  It has a belt running between two smooth pulleys.  The ratios are changed by varying the width of the primary and secondary pulleys.  If the width of the primary pulley is decreased and the secondary pulley increased you move to a higher ratio.  If the reverse happens you move to a lower one.  The ECM can vary those widths to any point it wants so it can choose from an infinite number of ratios.

When you go into manual mode it mimics having gears by using 6 fixed points in that range to represent the 6 ratios you can select from.  1 has the primary pulley wide open and the secondary pulley fully closed so you get the lowest ratio possible.  OD has the primary pulley fully closed and the secondary wide open so you get the highest ratio possible.  2,3,4 and 5 just use set pulley width positions in between those extremes.   

Try cruising along at about 65 in auto mode on level ground and note the rpm.  Now switch to manual and the CVT will probably go to 5.  Your rpm will also probably go up.  That indicates that the CVT was in a ratio higher than 5.  Remember that rpm in 5.   Now go to OD and note the rpm.  Switch to auto and the rpm will probably rise.  However it will still probably be lower than when you were in manual 5.  That says the CVT is in a ratio somewhere between 5 and OD. It can do that because it has an infinite number of ratios to choose from. 
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« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2013, 10:07:13 PM »




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billg
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« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2013, 11:17:24 PM »



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Yep, school be in session.
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« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2013, 12:08:33 AM »

When we had our two 650 Burgmans, I was in 'auto' mode almost all the time, the only exceptions were when we were traveling at highway or interstate speeds where I'd put it into manual overdrive to lock it into '6th'. Rarely, when riding on the interstate into a strong headwind, I'd have to put the bike back into 'auto' mode from overdrive in order to maintain speed and stay with traffic. In auto mode, our 650 would be able to deal with almost any interstate headwinds or hill climbs as long as it could generate the higher revs to keep maximum power on tap. In those occassional times, the manual 'overdrive' would not allow the engine to make enough power to maintain interstate speeds at the lower rpm's it was locked into in '6th'.

I almost never used 'power' mode, finding it only marginally 'better' than standard 'drive' mode and, IMO, generally not worth the effort for the relatively meager results, though I know that many other 650 owners might not agree with my rather indifferent opinion of the 'power' mode.

I did make a series of timed runs with my 650 in both 'power' and 'drive' modes, starting from a dead stop, and found that though the bike was a bit quicker to 60 in 'power', from 60mph upwards, the standard 'drive' mode was as fast, or even a bit faster in acceleration than it was in 'power' mode.
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SilverBullet
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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2013, 02:51:13 AM »

Ready for more Drama!

Usually when someone has a certain expertise in any subject its wise to listen (I know sometimes its hard to do) because you will usually learn something. Or take an attitude of "I didn't know that. I'll have to try that & see for myself"
Craig is the only person I know of that has torn into his CVT on his Burgman & successfully replaced the belt. Also has more miles on his Burgman than anybody I know. He has what I'll call "experienced, knowledge".

So today I played with the buttons on my Burgman & yes I did for the first time ever get the CVT to go from auto to OD as Craig described. And it only happened between 60 & 70 mph just a couple of times. So conditions must of been right. I could not get it to go into OD with speeds over 70 mph. I must add that it went in so smoothly that had it not been for the indicator lights, you wouldn't notice the difference. Thus also means that there was NO CHANGE in the engine RPM's which also indicates that Craig was right the CVT can reach OD mode in Auto mode. There was also NO CHANGE in engine RPM's when shifting from OD back to Auto mode.

Its been a while since I've played with the CVT buttons & must admit I learned something new today.

It also reafirms what Craig & I & others have said. Theirs no significant gain here.

Now....For all the naysayers out there......Before you even touch your keyboard for rebuttel......Take out your Burgman & see for yourself.
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« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2013, 01:55:31 AM »


Craig is the only person I know of that has torn into his CVT on his Burgman & successfully replaced the belt.

To be fair, while I am probably the only one on this board that has done that, quite a few on the Burgman USA board have taken their CVT apart and put it back together.  There is quite a base of knowledge about these machines on that board.   
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« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2013, 01:59:01 AM »


Craig is the only person I know of that has torn into his CVT on his Burgman & successfully replaced the belt.

To be fair, while I am probably the only one on this board that has done that, quite a few on the Burgman USA board have taken their CVT apart and put it back together.  There is quite a base of knowledge about these machines on that board.   

+1
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« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2013, 04:30:40 AM »

It looks like my Doctor of Scooterology should be revoked.
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