Maxi Scoots

Riding => Safety => Topic started by: Maggie on December 04, 2017, 11:52:19 AM



Title: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Maggie on December 04, 2017, 11:52:19 AM
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/3-motorcycle-myths-that-wont-die?con=TrueAnthem&dom=fb&lnk=TA&src=SOC&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=5a2483239ebbef0007ba1033&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook#page-4 (https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/3-motorcycle-myths-that-wont-die?con=TrueAnthem&dom=fb&lnk=TA&src=SOC&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=5a2483239ebbef0007ba1033&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook#page-4)


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Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: EZMark on December 05, 2017, 05:07:18 AM
When people tell me helmets don't increase your safety, I always make them this challenge.
I'll put on my helmet and you take a pool cue and hit me in the head as hard as you can.
Then it's my turn on your bare head.
I've never had anyone take me up on the offer.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Clampett on December 05, 2017, 05:48:14 AM
EZMark, Comparing a risk probability to a sure injury as evidence isn't a convincing argument
I.E. I sit in my auto and you hit the door as hard as you can with a sledge hammer. Then let me hit you with the same hammer while you sit on your motorcycle. Will you accept my challenge as it proves you should not ride a bike?


I'm for helmets!!!!!!!! Not saying the helmets aren't safer.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: sirkitrider-2 on December 05, 2017, 08:18:55 PM
Good read! 

"Defensive riding is every rider’s best shot at getting home in one piece. Stay out of other drivers’ blind spots. Slow down approaching intersections. Create and maintain a safety buffer in traffic by following at a safe distance and waving tailgaters by. Leave yourself room to escape if the sh*t comes down"

What he said ........

Sirkitrider


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: sirkitrider-2 on December 05, 2017, 08:25:32 PM
When people tell me helmets don't increase your safety, I always make them this challenge.
I'll put on my helmet and you take a pool cue and hit me in the head as hard as you can.
Then it's my turn on your bare head.
I've never had anyone take me up on the offer.


Yeah Mark ... same thing is true about a concealed carry gun.  Most ridicule the idea of a small caliber "mouse gun".  I've yet to find anyone who will volunteer to let me shoot them with my 22lr.:-)

Sure IF I'm in a gun fight, I'd prefer a 44 mag. but I cant carry and conceal that thing discreetly.

As far as helmets go .... I agree with the author.  But hey this is America ... people got a right to be wrong:-)

Sirkitrider



Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: redeye on December 05, 2017, 09:18:23 PM
... take a pool cue and hit me in the head as hard as you can.

... hit you with the same hammer...

Pool cues and sledge hammers... One must be careful browsing this thread; I'll pass on these challenges.

The best I could hope for is a swing and a myth from both of you, but the probability is probably quite low.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Clampett on December 05, 2017, 11:42:14 PM
Pool cues and sledge hammers... One must be careful browsing this thread; I'll pass on these challenges.

The best I could hope for is a swing and a myth from both of you, but the probability is probably quite low.

What if I take off my glasses first???? Come on and be a sport...you don't even have to disagree...just accept the challenge.....  :rofl:


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: gurock1 on December 06, 2017, 02:06:29 AM
I once played eight ball with a drunk guy in Thailand.  The drunk hit the Cue ball right off the table when it proceeded to hit a wall and bounced back hitting the guy in the head. After the ball hit him in the head he went out to my scooter, put on my helmet and came back in to finish the game.  He said eight ball was to dangerous to play without a helmet on!


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Clampett on December 06, 2017, 02:21:09 AM
There ya go @gurock1 ,
A direct comparison and results of risk assessment! I'm betting he never got hit in the head again, BUT had he had it on it would have definitely saved him the pain.
I guessing you continued the game without a helmet and had zero injury though, you lucky stiff....


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Liamjs on December 06, 2017, 05:09:22 AM
I’ve always challenged the loud pipes. If you’re THAT into safety that you buy loud pipes, then why not ATTGAT, florecent vests, and full helmets? I’d love see one with riding with a high viz jacket.  Lol.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: gurock1 on December 06, 2017, 09:38:44 PM
The BMW dealer in St Louis had stickers that said "If loud pipes saves lives imagine what a helmet and protective gear could do".
BTW, I finished the eight ball without getting hit by a cue ball and Mike finished the game safely with my helmet on.  If I can ever salvage the hard drive with many of my photos on it I actually have pictures of Mike playing pool with my helmet on.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Spyderist on December 07, 2017, 04:37:39 AM
Whenever I hear "loud pipes save lives" I immediately have to ask, if that were true wouldn't the folks who sell loud pipes commission studies to "prove" it ... and plaster it all over their advertising?  Of course they would, but they don't because they can't.

And, as the article pointed out, anecdotal evidence does not prove anything no matter how many anecdotes one produces.  For every incident where a rider claims loud pipes saved him, how many can be found where loud pipes did not?  POOF !  If anecdotes count, there goes your "proof".


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: scooterwolf on December 13, 2017, 01:03:47 AM
I'll take being T-boned by a car with my helmet and armored jacket than without. Load pipes just come across as annoying and a nuisance to anyone around them. Never understood the desire to ride something that requires you to wear ear plugs unless it's a jet fighter.

Great article. Thanks for posting.

- Wolf


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: EZMark on December 13, 2017, 04:59:43 PM
I think everyone is misunderstanding my cue stick challenge.
If someone wants to look me in the face and say "I choose not to wear a helmet because I live in a free country and it's my right to take whatever risks I want" I will 100% stand by his right to do so.
However, if he's spouting off that wearing a helmet provides no protection and in some cases they argue that a helmet will cause injury, then that is just absurd. I issue the challenge to illustrate their absurdity with more absurdity.
For the record, noone has ever taken me up on the challenge.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: minimac on December 13, 2017, 06:21:51 PM
Mark- Mark Twain once said "Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: CelticCross on December 13, 2017, 06:34:52 PM
Life has provided me with numerous opportunities to be exposed to loud noises (mostly from machinery and music); without hearing protection. Music was probably my main nemesis as I was most happy when I could feel the music. I now need hearing aids. Therefore, I wear ear plugs when I ride to help retain what hearing I have left. Noise doesn’t need to be that loud to cause a problem as exposure to wind noise can have a negative affect on hearing. I would encourage all to take precautions with your hearing just as you do with safety riding gear.

Ride safe and enjoy!


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Greg on December 14, 2017, 05:20:51 AM
Well this treads right on what I always empahsized, and that’s riding safety.  First off, I’d like to say that loud pipes are like emergency vehicle sirens.  When you start hearing them, you have no idea where they’re coming from.  IMHO, loud pipes only serve to annoy people.

Helmets:  I had an interesting conversation with a fellow one time who said he only wore his helmet when he was on the road, since the speeds were higher.  He said he didn’t wear his helmet in town in traffic because speeds were slower.  I let him know that this was ridiculous.  I’d read an article, I think from MSF, that stated that due to traffic conditions and the closeness of other vehicles, that a rider has a 60 times greater chance of needing the services of his/her helmet in urban traffic than when out on the road, even at elevated speeds.  Makes sense to me. 

Another “myth” about helmets comes from the no-helmet advocates, and they say that wearing a helmet restricts their peripheral vision.  This is nonsense, because no manufacturer of motorcycle safet helmets can market a helmet with less than a 200 degree facial opening, and human peripheral vision is no greater than 180 degrees.  To ride while depending on only peripheral vision is lunacy.  Your head should be on a swivel at all times.  And wearing those ridiculous beanie cap toy “helmets” provides almost zero protection, and absolutely zero protection for your face!

ATGATT:  ATGATT is cheap insurance, and it’s sure a lot less painful to replace an abraided jacket or boots or gloves than it is to be in the hospital while they abrade dirt and rocks out of your skin, and it doesn’t leave any scars.  My motto was alway, “Dress for the fall, not for the ride.”

Risk assessment, as pertains to motorcycle riding is hard because there are so many variables.  It depends on the style of riding, even the style of the motorcycle.  And how about rider experience and skill?  In the end, no one can afix hard numbers or percentages, or to even calculate the risk to a rider.  How about a rider who is very skilled, but doesn’t take proper care of their bike, like tires, servicing chains, forks, shocks, all those things that keep you upright.

Finally, no matter what you do or wear, there is nothing that can be done to make riding safe.  It’s always a “calculated” risk, assumed by the rider, anc can only be made safer.  But not safe.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Expat47 on December 14, 2017, 08:16:20 AM
<snip>
Finally, no matter what you do or wear, there is nothing that can be done to make riding safe.  It’s always a “calculated” risk, assumed by the rider, anc can only be made safer.  But not safe.

Well said. :2tu:


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Maggie on December 19, 2017, 02:50:40 PM
<snip>
Finally, no matter what you do or wear, there is nothing that can be done to make riding safe.  It’s always a “calculated” risk, assumed by the rider, anc can only be made safer.  But not safe.

Well said. :2tu:


Bingo


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: gurock1 on December 19, 2017, 07:04:11 PM
In my year or two living in Thailand, one thing I noticed was that the Thai people. who mostly get where they are going on two wheels, have an inordinate number of skin rash scars.  They have a helmet law that gets satisfied with a garbage beanie and no one wears any other gear.  It's especially sad when seeing so many young pretty ladies with road rash scars on their bodies.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Expat47 on December 19, 2017, 08:16:14 PM
In my year or two living in Thailand, one thing I noticed was that the Thai people. who mostly get where they are going on two wheels, have an inordinate number of skin rash scars.  They have a helmet law that gets satisfied with a garbage beanie and no one wears any other gear.  It's especially sad when seeing so many young pretty ladies with road rash scars on their bodies.

The fact of the matter is that ATGATT just isn't practical when riding equates to basic transportation. The time it would take to fulfill that safety function would, in most cases, take longer than the trip itself! Plus, riding in areas where scooters & bikes are the norm (and in some cases the majority) is a whole lot safer than the streets of the US.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: CelticCross on December 20, 2017, 06:49:46 PM
While I recommend that one ride ATGATT, I don’t always follow my own advice. As Expat stated, some times it is not practical to fully gear up. That said, I still wear most of the gear all the time. Ride, ride at your own risk and enjoy.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Yellow Jacket on December 21, 2017, 02:35:14 AM
The logic behind spending $500+ on a set of loud, obnoxious pipes out of personal safety concerns, then spending  $20 on a helmet that will only keep the rain off your head escapes me completely. I've heard it said, "If you have a $20 head, buy a $20 helmet" 


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Maggie on December 21, 2017, 02:10:18 PM
While I recommend that one ride ATGATT, I don’t always follow my own advice. As Expat stated, some times it is not practical to fully gear up. That said, I still wear most of the gear all the time. Ride, ride at your own risk and enjoy.

I am pretty much the same.  I've always used a full face helmet.  Not always good about jacket and gloves. 


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Clampett on December 21, 2017, 06:06:50 PM
The logic behind spending $500+ on a set of loud, obnoxious pipes out of personal safety concerns, then spending  $20 on a helmet that will only keep the rain off your head escapes me completely. I've heard it said, "If you have a $20 head, buy a $20 helmet" 
So, I guess we over protect our bodies?  :rofl: (worth $5? rounding up)
https://www.thoughtco.com/worth-of-your-elements-3976054 (https://www.thoughtco.com/worth-of-your-elements-3976054)

Just kidding here....


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Expat47 on December 21, 2017, 06:09:16 PM
Damn!! My last helmet cost me over $350!!!!


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Clampett on December 21, 2017, 06:13:31 PM
Damn!! My last helmet cost me over $350!!!!
Though I'm new here, I'm very confident that your value has previously been established above the elemental basics!!!!!!


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Yellow Jacket on December 21, 2017, 10:04:08 PM
I've had 2 helmets that bare what probably would have been life ending incidents. Maybe should have kept them as reminders but junked them instead.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Maggie on December 23, 2017, 03:33:46 PM
I've had 2 helmets that bare what probably would have been life ending incidents. Maybe should have kept them as reminders but junked them instead.

Same here.... or at the very least had hamburger for a face afterwards.



Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: gurock1 on December 23, 2017, 07:10:04 PM
I've lost count.  That's not to mention that my helmet has probably saved my face from some painful road grit, bugs, and junk.  I think that more then anything it's a matter of habit.  If you go through a small amount of pain and suffering to get used to ATGATT soon you feel naked without it.  

A certain amount of what changed my habits was that a few years ago I made a mistake with my health insurance and somehow it was cancelled for a few months.  Every time I'd get on the bike I'd think of how bad even a broken bone would be without insurance and boy I got more careful.  Since then I've only had one get off in probably something like 75,000 miles.  That get off was caused by a drunk in a pick up truck going on the wrong side of the road through a mountain turn.

I know especially on a hot sunny day ATGATT seems so oppressive looking but if you actually do it the only time it gets oppressive is standing still.

I somehow think that I want to tell everyone a recent and personal story.  Back in the early summer when I had the get off in Kentucky due to the pickup truck on the wrong side, I cut my shin.  It was a little deep but didn't seem to bad, so I pretty much ignored it.  Over time while trying to get it to heal it became infected.  Also consider that I am diabetic and these cuts are harder to get to heal.  Anyway in October after four rounds of anti-bio-tics the infection wasn't entirely healed and somehow spread into the bone of my jaw underneath the bridge of my front middle tooth.   This caused two more rounds of anti-bio-tics, several weeks of some of the worst imaginable pain and I lost the bridge which is still open.  The infection is now healed, but I still need to do dental work that will involve substantial pain and probably 5 to 10k in cost.

I guess the point of the story is that these things have a way of sneaking up on you and that the precautions are a bit goofy looking and such, but the pain that can be saved is a big issue.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: msgtphil on April 14, 2018, 11:12:29 AM
I am way late responding to this thread not because I didn't follow it rather that formulating a response took some thought. While I do not intend to defend the "Loud pipes save lives" philosophy, I believe the article's reasoning flawed. The writer states he discovered much research on benefits of bright clothing but no research concerning loud pipes therefore there was no indication loud pipes contributed to safety. By the same reasoning of lack of research there is also no indication loud pipes do not contribute to safety. While it is inarguable that the majority of sound follows an object the implication that I or others can not or are unlikely to hear a loud motorbike or any loud sound approaching and distinguish direction is ludicrous. While distinguishing direction could be difficult in some urban areas where sound is echoing off buildings in most instances direction is readily distinguishable. Otherwise, let's save some money for safety research by removing sirens from police, emergency vehicles and that horn button on motorbikes. The writer provides an example of a motorbike riders stating he revved the engine and a car about to pull out stopped and goes on to point out there was no evidence the revved engine was the reason the driver stopped. I agree but by the same reasoning there is no evidence the revved engine is not what got the drivers attention. Again, I am not a defender, I readily admit any propensity toward loud pipes (not straight) is because I like to hear my engine, motorbike, car or truck chances are I am running or intending to install an aftermarket exhaust, not straight pipes, my preference is a mellow rumble. I just find the writer's conclusion that lack of research indicates loud pipes are not a safety benefit is flawed. What I read was it is impossible to prove or disprove loud pipes are beneficial until a micro-chip that analyzes, differentiates and records response to every stimuli is available and embedded in every driver's brain. AC-DC and jet aircraft took away my high tone reception long ago. Other than those renting an apartment over the H-D shop where are you being exposed to loud pipes enough to cause hearing loss?
   Concerning motorbike safety research vs hard evidence, daytime headlights have been required for motorbikes in the U.S. for more than half a century following research, show me the evidence accidents involving motorbikes and another vehicle decreased following implementation. There has been much research into visibility, show me the accident investigation reports showing that those wearing safety yellow/orange helmets and/or vests, flashing and/or multiple lights are involved in less multi-vehicle accidents. Show me an accident investigation agency that even specifies half, 3/4, modular or full face helmet rather than just helmet or no helmet. While research indicates these items should contribute to motorcycle safety I have yet to discover any documented accident investigation evidence that those with multiple or modulating lights and those wearing bright colors are involved in fewer multi-vehicle accidents. Of course the failure of accident investigative agencies to document any factor rather than helmet/no helmet is the cause of the lack of evidence but until such factors are documented in accident investigations and large enough database is available the actual safety benefits of multiple/modulating lights and bright colors are just as much a myth as 'loud pipes save lives'.  
   Despite any definitive proof I'm sure at various times some observant drivers, not engaged in toe nail painting or texting, at the last moment spotted a  modulating light or day glow green helmet and avoided an accident and hypothetically the percentage should be higher than those wearing bland clothing or with single headlight though supporting evidence is lacking. How with no more or no less evidence can I deny the possibility among that vast horde of vehicles a loud exhaust caused some similar percentage of drivers to hesitate just long enough to spot and avoid a potential accident. You find loud exhaust annoying, irritating, obnoxious,, unlawful understandable. You know a large percentage of drivers find modulating lights annoying, irritating, obnoxious. Loud pipes saves lives / don't save lives no definitive proof, only conjecture supported by bias on both sides. I don't know which side I fall toward, I don't believe there are thousands of riders still this side of the river Styx just because they have loud exhaust. I think the whole 'Loud Pipes Save Lives' campaign is an attempt to prevent or limit government regulation by those who like loud pipes. Still, is it far fetched that among that vast horde 1 driver a year might avoid running over a motorbike, even if he just hesitated a split second attempting to determine which direction the sound of a loud exhaust came and would one a year be enough. All the evidence indicates I shouldn't be writing this time of morning and should have continued not responding to this thread.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: EZMark on April 14, 2018, 11:45:45 PM
I have had Harley's in my blind spot in the past and if they hadn't had loud pipes I might have changed lanes in front of them. But for the vast majority of the time, anyone pulling in front of a rider wouldn't hear the bike anyway since the exhaust goes out the back and the accident is in the front. If they want to avoid lane change collisions, they shouldn't ride in a car's blind spot.
If the loud pipe crowd was truly concerned about safety, they should definitely wear helmets. Here in Illinois, you might see 1 in 1000 Harley riders with a helmet on.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: jdbrot on April 15, 2018, 01:33:53 PM
Loud pipes annoy me but so do headlight modulators. However people feel safe is okay, my hi-vis gear and brake light flasher probably irritates others too. As long as free choice allows us to customize our bikes and dress anything goes and if it keeps other motorists from hitting me it is a bonus.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Buffalo on April 15, 2018, 05:22:01 PM
As Greg said, motorcycling is a calculated risk.  Problem is some folks don't calculate to well. 

Best advice I can give is to dress for the crash cause odds are if you ride long enough it will  happen.  And always ride as if you are invisible because to some folks you are.  You can add all the loud pipes, lights (flashing or not) and brightly colored clothing you like but there will still be folks that won't see you.  Heck I've witnessed people running into huge brightly painted fire trucks with flashing lights all over them and sirens and horns blaring.  Some folks just drive along in a fog.   


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: sirkitrider-2 on April 16, 2018, 01:47:00 PM
As Greg said, motorcycling is a calculated risk.  Problem is some folks don't calculate to well. 

Best advice I can give is to dress for the crash cause odds are if you ride long enough it will  happen.  And always ride as if you are invisible because to some folks you are.  You can add all the loud pipes, lights (flashing or not) and brightly colored clothing you like but there will still be folks that won't see you.  Heck I've witnessed people running into huge brightly painted fire trucks with flashing lights all over them and sirens and horns blaring.  Some folks just drive along in a fog.   

+uno!

Sirkitrider


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: sirkitrider-2 on April 16, 2018, 02:32:53 PM
And, I've long contended that you could be riding around in the Oscar Meyer weiner mobile ...

(https://s7.postimg.cc/6vlywelxj/IMG_5078.png) (https://postimg.cc/image/6vlywelxj/)

get runner over ... and the other driver would say ... SMIDSY!   :head:

Sirkitrider


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: minimac on April 16, 2018, 05:02:41 PM
No one ever plans on crashing, but regardless who is at fault, it happens. I dress and ride to give me the best chance for non-injury, when and if it happens. I don't agree with those that say if you ride long enough, it will happen, but maybe that's because I spent my working career where personal responsibility and vigilance were primary, and almost all so called accidents were preventable. Very few were actually accidents. It's too bad other drivers don't drive with the same "What If..." attitude most motorcyclists have to.


Title: Re: Riding “Myths”
Post by: Steve_YYZ on May 02, 2018, 10:37:16 PM
... take a pool cue and hit me in the head as hard as you can.

... hit you with the same hammer...

Pool cues and sledge hammers... One must be careful browsing this thread; I'll pass on these challenges.

The best I could hope for is a swing and a myth from both of you, but the probability is probably quite low.

Ya, and neither one of these guys would take the Tide Pod Challenge! LMAO!!!